19 replies to this topic

[Defiance]

This is a few weeks old, but I don't remember seeing it here. Quite funny. I hope Jim was kept out of these dealings.

December 8, 2011

Doors dad ordered hit single

Manzarek tells how band had to beg for money to buy keyboard – and Krieger’s father agreed on one condition
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Begging bowl: Ray Manzarek

Doors icon Ray Manzarek has recalled the moment his impoverished young band had to beg for money to buy a keyboard.

And guitarist Robby Krieger’s dad only agreed to pay up one on stringent condition.

Manzarek says that even though he already owned one keyboard, the band’s music couldn’t have worked without the second instrument.

He tells Gibson.com: “My right hand played the organ, with all the filigrees, while the left hand played the same thing over and over again on the bass keyboard. The effect was to go from boring to hypnotic.

“We had to ask Robby’s father for the money to but the keyboard bass. We told him we would pay him back, and he said: ‘Tell you what: you pay me back if go nowhere.

“‘All I ask is that you write a hit single.’”

An expanded version of the Doors’ classic album LA Woman is released in January. Manzarek feels there are a lot of positives as he looks back on the band’s career.

“The real fun of the whole experience was imagining the success of the Doors,” says the keyboardist. “It was like, ‘Alright, we’re going to get a rock and roll band together, make fabulous albums, and have the whole world know who were are, like the Beatles and the Stones and Bob Dylan and the Beach Boys.’

“And we accomplished that. That was our conception. We created the art, and the results of that art achieved exactly what we were hoping for.”

The tragic death of Jim Morrison in 1971 brought the band’s further ambitions to a halt, although the surviving members released two more albums without their iconic singer.

But Manzarek says there wasn’t much that could have been done to save him from his alcoholism.

“In those days Alcoholics Anonymous was more for winos,” he reflects. “Upper-class, sophisticated alcoholics really had no place to go.

“But I don’t know that Jim would have gone along with a 12-step program anyway. He would have had to turn over his life to a higher power, when in fact we are at one with the higher power.

“Alcoholism ran in the Morrison family line. I think he had a genetic predisposition. That’s what eventually did him in. That’s the great tragedy – he was so brilliant, and such a wonderful guy, and so much fun to be with, but there was that demon alcohol.”

http://rocknewsdesk....it-single/4167/

Edited by Defiance, 31 December 2011 - 06:57 PM.

[Dawn Visitation]

I highly doubt Jim's genes did him in, that's a simplification, genes might be on the trigger but they certainly don't alone trigger.

With fame and therefore money Jim could consume alcohol on a daily basis and with fame he also had more people around him than he needed.  

I am positive had Jim chosen to listen to his own father's knowledge about life, he would have been alive.

[mizscarlett43]

Dawn Visitation, on 02 January 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

I highly doubt Jim's genes did him in, that's a simplification, genes might be on the trigger but they certainly don't alone trigger.

With fame and therefore money Jim could consume alcohol on a daily basis and with fame he also had more people around him than he needed.  

I am positive had Jim chosen to listen to his own father's knowledge about life, he would have been alive.

...because of course being physically alive as long as possible and living a conventional midldle class life is the highest possible aspiration for any human being. That whole legend thing is waaaay overblown.

That said, it is recognized that for someone of Nina's turbulent background and life history (she's a Serb, to the best of my recollection) a comfortable American upper middle class life may seem like paradise--and for much of the world it would be--but Jim was born to it and took it for granted.
  
He was after much bigger game, and he got it.

Finally, AFAIK it's been recognized for some time now that alcoholism is a genetic disease.
+++++++++
On edit: I don't know why, but there seems to be a problem simply because I used one of the Board's own emoticons in my post, so I've deleted it.

(Incidentally, I suspect a lot of the weirdness I've been experiencing lately is because I'm using an ancient (2007) MacBook, but that's about to change. I've saved enough to buy the aluminum-cased MacBook Pro I should have got in the first place, and I'm wondering if any other Mac users out there have any advice or warnings before I take the plunge...?)

Edited by mizscarlett43, 02 January 2012 - 02:52 PM.

[Defiance]

Dawn Visitation, on 02 January 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

I highly doubt Jim's genes did him in, that's a simplification, genes might be on the trigger but they certainly don't alone trigger.

With fame and therefore money Jim could consume alcohol on a daily basis and with fame he also had more people around him than he needed.  

I am positive had Jim chosen to listen to his own father's knowledge about life, he would have been alive.

Ray is implying that genes turned him into an alcoholic, not that genes necesarrily did him in. I am guessing that is what Ray means since some people can indeed resist genetic predisposition and some alcoholics are able to stop drinking. It was Jim's choice to drink. Jim did himself in by not resisting his programming.

Jim was a functioning drunk/alcoholic for many years. We could even say that alcohol fueled the music for a period from 1968-1970.

Something else combined itself with the booze and was a contributing factor. It could be health, legal, psychic, etc.... that turned the tides.

Yes, Jim had access to alcohol and he had people around him who wouldn't take the bottle from him even though such a thing needed to be done.

How does having more people around him than he needed affect Jim?

Maybe Jim's father wasn't the type to offer advice. However, he did tell Jim that singing in a Rock band was a mistake.
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Edit: It is confusing because of Ray's language. He says “Alcoholism ran in the Morrison family line. I think he had a genetic predisposition. That’s what eventually did him in.

Alcohol started affecting Jim right away, there was no 'eventually'. Jim was an alcoholic from an early age, like 24 years old when he first became a Rock star. It was definitley the alcohol itself, not genes. As you can see below, there is a process. A person can interupt that process if they really try.

Genes = Alcoholic
Alcoholic = Drinking
Drinking = Death

Genes don't = Death as Ray perhaps is saying.

Steps to break addiction:

A. You can have the genes and never become alcoholic.
B. You can be an alcoholic and not ever drink. (In AA you admit you are an alcoholic even if you don't currently drink)
C. You can drink but not take yourself to point of death.

Edited by Defiance, 02 January 2012 - 05:50 PM.

[Dawn Visitation]

Defiance, on 02 January 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

Ray is implying that genes turned him into an alcoholic, not that genes necesarrily did him in. I am guessing that is what Ray means since some people can indeed resist genetic predisposition and some alcoholics are able to stop drinking. It was Jim's choice to drink. Jim did himself in by not resisting his programming.

Jim was a functioning drunk/alcoholic for many years. We could even say that alcohol fueled the music for a period from 1968-1970.

Something else combined itself with the booze and was a contributing factor. It could be health, legal, psychic, etc.... that turned the tides.

Yes, Jim had access to alcohol and he had people around him who wouldn't take the bottle from him even though such a thing needed to be done.

How does having more people around him than he needed affect Jim?

Maybe Jim's father wasn't the type to offer advice. However, he did tell Jim that singing in a Rock band was a mistake.
------------------------------------------------------
Edit: It is confusing because of Ray's language. He says “Alcoholism ran in the Morrison family line. I think he had a genetic predisposition. That’s what eventually did him in.

Alcohol started affecting Jim right away, there was no 'eventually'. Jim was an alcoholic from an early age, like 24 years old when he first became a Rock star. It was definitley the alcohol itself, not genes. As you can see below, there is a process. A person can interupt that process if they really try.

Genes = Alcoholic
Alcoholic = Drinking
Drinking = Death

Genes don't = Death as Ray perhaps is saying.

Steps to break addiction:

A. You can have the genes and never become alcoholic.
B. You can be an alcoholic and not ever drink. (In AA you admit you are an alcoholic even if you don't currently drink)
C. You can drink but not take yourself to point of death.

Cool post.

I had read an article posted on this board and if I remember correctly it came forward that Jim's father had been out drinking, got into a fight and was arrested in his youth.

Assume Jim's father knew a thing or two and especially now if alcoholism ran in the family then of course his father knew of the risks a young man like Jim was getting himself into when choosing the path he did and therefore the opinion. Not many parents out there who would not be of concern, there's a reason why Rock n' Roll has always been linked with Sex & Drugs.


To answer your question, think the people and therefore the attention that came, likely did have some negative affects on a young man. Very often it is other people that introduce you to drugs with not the best in mind and for Jim it went so far that it lead him to heroin and to the likes of the Count.

Edited by Dawn Visitation, 02 January 2012 - 10:14 PM.

[Defiance]

Dawn Visitation, on 02 January 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

Cool post.

I had read an article posted on this board and if I remember correctly it came forward that Jim's father had been out drinking, got into a fight and was arrested in his youth.

Assume Jim's father knew a thing or two and especially now if alcoholism ran in the family then of course his father knew of the risks a young man like Jim was getting himself into when choosing the path he did and therefore the opinion. Not many parents out there who would not be of concern, there's a reason why Rock n' Roll has always been linked with Sex & Drugs.

To answer your question, think the people and therefore the attention that came, likely did have some negative affects on a young man. Very often it is other people that introduce you to drugs with not the best in mind and for Jim it went so far that it lead him to heroin and to the likes of the Count.

Jim's father may have known about the family genes, but Jim would have been too young to know what Senior Morrison was even talking about. Jim never spoke to his father once he [Jim] became an alcoholic. The last time they spoke was before Jim started drinking.

Just this weekend MMA figher Houston Alexander was arrested for forcing his 16 year old son to box with him. That was Houston's way of advice.

I doubt that Admiral Morrison could easily speak with Jim on any matter.

Jim's father just thought that Morrison was delusional, I don't think they were trying to save him from any sex and drugs. It was just a foolish idea to Mr. Morrison. Jim wasn't asking permission, he was just informing them and they freaked out. Rock music was Bull Shit to the older people.

No one could have imagined what Jim would do in 1966 [record the debut album, The Doors].

There was no musical background on Jim's part. He went into it blind.

Edited by Defiance, 03 January 2012 - 09:02 AM.

[crazyhorse80]

It's not really documented how much of anything he consumed before The Doors, but as the link below suggests, there were signs of drinking at a younger age, and who knows what the elder Morrison lectured him about after this, if anything...

Jim Morrison's 1963 Arrest

Edited by crazyhorse80, 03 January 2012 - 05:36 PM.

[Shelby68]

Dawn Visitation, on 02 January 2012 - 08:38 AM, said:

I am positive had Jim chosen to listen to his own father's knowledge about life, he would have been alive.

I don't know what you mean, Dawn. Jim's father didn't recognize his talent, his uniqueness. It would have killed Jim's soul not to be an artist and express his true self. His dad would have urged him to do something practical and honorable, like joining the Navy [this isn't a knock on Mr. Morrison - I think he was able to understand his son only after Jim's death, which is tragic]

Is it true that alcoholism ran in Jim's family (I don't know if Ray meant the Morrisons or the Clarkes). I never heard this before, not that it's any of our business.  

Jim may have had to have been hospitalized if he wanted to dry out. As recently as '79 or '80, that's what happened to Alice Cooper; he was committed to a psychiatric hospital to detox. His descriptions were very bleak.

[Defiance]

crazyhorse80, on 03 January 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

It's not really documented how much of anything he consumed before The Doors, but as the link below suggests, there were signs of drinking at a younger age, and who knows what the elder Morrison lectured him about after this, if anything...

Jim Morrison's 1963 Arrest

How would such documentation even have been collected? While it is true that Jim was involved in medical-trials at UCLA, and perhaps may have filled in a questionaire on alcohol use, he was in it simply to get free pills and likely would not be truthful with those running the experiments. He would go from room to room and use false names each time in order to load up on experimental pills of different varieties.

Of course there were signs of drinking at Jim's younger ages, but that doesn't prove anything. Nearly every youth, future-alcoholic or not, goes out and gets drunk at age 19. I would actually say that drinking before age 21 plays no part in an 'alcoholic' personality developing later on.

Despite drinking at high school age, he had not become alcoholic from merely that youthful activity alone.

Funny term though, 'Signs of Drinking'.... who was looking for these signs? God? The thing to identify is when he starts drinking all the time.

Frankly, I would be more worried for Jim if there were not signs of drinking at an early age.

Edit: I am sure that Liberals do indeed look for these so-called 'signs of drinking' and 'signs of drug-use' so that they can stamp it out and destroy all the Rock 'n' Roll dreams of this nation.

Shelby68, on 03 January 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

I don't know what you mean, Dawn. Jim's father didn't recognize his talent, his uniqueness. It would have killed Jim's soul not to be an artist and express his true self. His dad would have urged him to do something practical and honorable, like joining the Navy [this isn't a knock on Mr. Morrison - I think he was able to understand his son only after Jim's death, which is tragic]

Is it true that alcoholism ran in Jim's family (I don't know if Ray meant the Morrisons or the Clarkes). I never heard this before, not that it's any of our business.  

Jim may have had to have been hospitalized if he wanted to dry out. As recently as '79 or '80, that's what happened to Alice Cooper; he was committed to a psychiatric hospital to detox. His descriptions were very bleak.

Jim's father wasn't a talent-scout, so I don't know what you mean by the term 'didn't recognize'. Jim was gone from his parents' lives by the time he started singing, so there really wasn't a chance for Admiral Morrison to make a judgement either way on the actual singing. It wasn't like Jim was a singer while he was in his teen-age years and expressed a dream to Rock and Roll.

Why does a parent have to recognize talent in a child? Said recognition plays no part in anything. If you want to know the truth, parents recognizing talent in their child can actually hinder any future wordly-difference the child will make with his or her music. There is nothing worse than parents who parade around their 13 year old 'guitar prodigies' and try and put their kids out on the 'Dive bar' concert circuit.

When the Morrisons finally did hear Jim singing, it was on the first Doors LP. Any input from the Admiral at that time would have been pointless. Jim already made it without them.

The Jim Morrison that they heard on that record was not the Jim Morrison they knew as their son. The voice was that of a stranger.

Edited by Defiance, 03 January 2012 - 09:52 PM.

[Dawn Visitation]

Shelby68, on 03 January 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

I don't know what you mean, Dawn. Jim's father didn't recognize his talent, his uniqueness. It would have killed Jim's soul not to be an artist and express his true self. His dad would have urged him to do something practical and honorable, like joining the Navy [this isn't a knock on Mr. Morrison - I think he was able to understand his son only after Jim's death, which is tragic]

Is it true that alcoholism ran in Jim's family (I don't know if Ray meant the Morrisons or the Clarkes). I never heard this before, not that it's any of our business.  

Jim may have had to have been hospitalized if he wanted to dry out. As recently as '79 or '80, that's what happened to Alice Cooper; he was committed to a psychiatric hospital to detox. His descriptions were very bleak.

We cannot know how it was in the household but we can look at Jim's two siblings enough to know that their parents must have been fairly enough
decent people even for Jim, even if they likely sometimes were at fault too. Jim made his choices, his mother was willing to meet him but he did not want it. She did not refuse him his talents, she just wanted to meet him.

Would not surprise me if Alice Cooper the very least kept in touch with his parents? Believe it or not but I firmly think it's people from our childhood that keep us "down to earth" and Jim missed the train.

[crazyhorse80]

Defiance, on 03 January 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

How would such documentation even have been collected?

That is an excellent question. You would collect that documentation much like a journalist would collect information for their articles--it is sometimes referred to as investigative reporting. Not sure if you are familiar with the methods of journalism, but you would use similar methods to collect the documentation to see how much Morrison drank or what psychoactives he took before he was in The Doors. Any of the several authors that wrote biographies about Morrison might have applied this method, such as interviewing his family and friends from that period in his life who can relate their remembrance of him and tell certain events they witnessed. And they can also research all public records, which is how his 1963 arrest was documented. That is how Hunter S. Thompson, Tom Wolfe, George Plimpton and the like produced their articles. It's actually very simple and I'm glad I could pass that information along to you. And also, I'd like to read more about Morrison's medical experiments while he was at UCLA, where did you see that documented?

[Defiance]

crazyhorse80, on 04 January 2012 - 12:46 AM, said:

That is an excellent question. You would collect that documentation much like a journalist would collect information for their articles--it is sometimes referred to as investigative reporting. Not sure if you are familiar with the methods of journalism, but you would use similar methods to collect the documentation to see how much Morrison drank or what psychoactives he took before he was in The Doors. Any of the several authors that wrote biographies about Morrison might have applied this method, such as interviewing his family and friends from that period in his life who can relate their remembrance of him and tell certain events they witnessed. And they can also research all public records, which is how his 1963 arrest was documented. That is how Hunter S. Thompson, Tom Wolfe, George Plimpton and the like produced their articles. It's actually very simple and I'm glad I could pass that information along to you. And also, I'd like to read more about Morrison's medical experiments while he was at UCLA, where did you see that documented?

Typical Liberal BS. Thanks, but I'll pass on all that.

Ray Manzarek is my Drug information officer.

The psychoactives were Datura Angels Trumpet plant, the LSD, maybe some early anti-deppresants, and muscle relaxant drugs. There was liquid PCP, maybe some type of MDMA, DMT, Peyote, other cactus... opium, coke, heroin.

Morrison Bio authors like the guy who wrote 'Lizard King was Here'?   I'm not really looking to them for drug-info or any advice on what is cool. They aren't Rock stars. Kids should look up to Rock heroes, not guys who sensationalize Morrison. I would like for one of them to tell me who can beat Bones Jones at 205 lbs.

P.S. I never said Morrison had any type of 'medical experiment' at UCLA. Zero points.

Also, you are the one who is on about 'documents'. I am merely pointing out how ridiculous such a thing sounds. There are no documents. The best thing we have is Manzarek and Densmore.

You also seem to make a disctinction of before Doors and after Jim was in the Doors regarding drugs. For all intents and purposes, it is the same. LSD wasn't made illegal until 1966, well after The Doors had formed.

Jim had better access to drugs once he had a hit single. Many of his drugs came as a result of fame. In other words, he wouldn't have come across so many bad drugs if he had not been in that drug-crowd that comes with being well known on the music scene.

Edited by Defiance, 04 January 2012 - 03:07 AM.

[Shelby68]

I suggest you read Admiral Morrison's poignant 1970 letter to the Florida Probation and Parole Commission District Office, wherein he acknowledges that his harsh criticism of Jim's musical ambitions hurt his son deeply and probably damaged their relationship.

I don't care who you are, it hurts when a parent rejects who you are and pisses on your dreams.

[crazyhorse80]

Defiance, on 04 January 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

P.S. I never said Morrison had any type of 'medical experiment' at UCLA. Zero points.

Oh, really? Well, here is a quote from your previous post:

Defiance, on 03 January 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

While it is true that Jim was involved in medical-trials at UCLA, and perhaps may have filled in a questionaire on alcohol use, he was in it simply to get free pills and likely would not be truthful with those running the experiments. He would go from room to room and use false names each time in order to load up on experimental pills of different varieties.

Oh, and there is a distinction between what Jim took before he was in The Doors, and after The Doors, because like you said, he had better access to drugs when in The Doors, and as is known, alcohol was the one he always reverted to. That is the discussion this topic was involved in until you became confounded and deviated from the topic. Because, as we were talking alcoholism and genetics, I merely pointed out that 1963 arrest which acknowledges that there were incidents of Morrison drinking well before The Doors, and while he was still talking to the admiral, after you posted this:

Defiance, on 03 January 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

Jim's father may have known about the family genes, but Jim would have been too young to know what Senior Morrison was even talking about. Jim never spoke to his father once he [Jim] became an alcoholic. The last time they spoke was before Jim started drinking.

Whether or not he was an alcoholic in 1963, there was opportunity for the Admiral to talk about alcohol, but since you were wrong about your supposed facts, like always, I figured I'd clarify your misinformation. And seriously, you are one of the most confused and unintelligible trolls I have come across on any board, ever. Perhaps that's the method to your meaninglessness?

[Dawn Visitation]

Shelby68, on 04 January 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

I suggest you read Admiral Morrison's poignant 1970 letter to the Florida Probation and Parole Commission District Office, wherein he acknowledges that his harsh criticism of Jim's musical ambitions hurt his son deeply and probably damaged their relationship.

I don't care who you are, it hurts when a parent rejects who you are and pisses on your dreams.

Bet it did very much but maybe it eventually got the best out of Jim the whole "escapism".

I choose to see it like yes his father hurt him deeply but Jim had choices, their relationship was really not doomed altogether but he made it seem like it was when choosing to become "estranged". That's something for Jim to take on himself, it had nothing then to do with his parents, only Jim. This is how I understand, everyone is meant to understand it differently. =)

[Shelby68]

Dawn Visitation, on 04 January 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

I choose to see it like yes his father hurt him deeply but Jim had choices, their relationship was really not doomed altogether but he made it seem like it was when choosing to become "estranged". That's something for Jim to take on himself, it had nothing then to do with his parents, only Jim. This is how I understand, everyone is meant to understand it differently. =)

That's cool, I respect other viewpoints My post was sort of directed at Defiance saying that Jim's father's reaction to his musical dreams probbaly didn't mean anything to him.

Maybe Jim and his dad would have reconciled if Jim had lived. Alain Ronay said that Jim had begun speaking fondly about his father in the months preceding his death, telling funny stories.

[Defiance]

Shelby68, on 04 January 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

I suggest you read Admiral Morrison's poignant 1970 letter to the Florida Probation and Parole Commission District Office, wherein he acknowledges that his harsh criticism of Jim's musical ambitions hurt his son deeply and probably damaged their relationship.

I don't care who you are, it hurts when a parent rejects who you are and pisses on your dreams.

I am not talking about 'musical ambition'. I studied a lot of Louis Armstrong and Billie Holidy in college and 'musical ambition' is what creates musicians. It is either there or it isn't.  Nothing is going to lessen or remove the ambition. Nothing can put it there, people are born with it. Look at Kris Kristofferson.

I am talking about actual music on record. The first time that Admiral ever heard Jim's music was in 1967 when the LP came out. Jim was out in CA, far from his parents. The brother and sister played it for them.

It didn't matter to Jim that his father thought his "ambitions" were wrong. What in the hell does the Admiral know about music? Nothing. He likely came to appreciate the music once Jim was gone. He was forced to listen to it from a different point of view after 1971.

Further, the Admiral doesn't even know what 'musical ambition' is. You sort of have to play an instrument or be a fan of a band to know that sort of thing. All that the Admiral knew was the Military.

This letter you mention has nothing to do with the actual talent Jim had or what he would go on to do with said talent. I don't know what exactly it is that you are even arguing, and I doubt you even know.

Damaged their relationship? Whatever! Jim was just keeping in touch, but Jim soon realized that it was not worth it. His parents were always gonna have something negative to say to him. You act like the being in a band thing was something new.

Perhaps more parents should tell their children no to being in Rock bands. Rock bands are just excuses for peope to use drugs.. and you know it is true.

The music was more of God's plan than it was 'Jim's dreams'.

Edit: I saw your reply to DawnV and I must say that I don't think that Jim even had 'musical dreams'. He wouldn't have used heroin to the extent that he did in a race towards death if he had musical dreams.

Jim had something, but it wasn't that.

Edited by Defiance, 04 January 2012 - 08:22 PM.

[Defiance]

Dawn Visitation, on 04 January 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

Bet it did very much but maybe it eventually got the best out of Jim the whole "escapism".

I choose to see it like yes his father hurt him deeply but Jim had choices, their relationship was really not doomed altogether but he made it seem like it was when choosing to become "estranged". That's something for Jim to take on himself, it had nothing then to do with his parents, only Jim. This is how I understand, everyone is meant to understand it differently. =)

I think that Jim could easily put the music disagreement with his father aside. Once Jim made it to the big time, I am sure the father accepted that Jim was a professional and knew how to do his job of being a vocalist. Jim wasn't a musician in this sense. He is just someone who had an idea and Ray was there to make it happen.

When Ray found Jim on the beach, Jim only had words and a crude melody. Ray took Jim to the UCLA piano practice rooms to figure out chords for the songs that were 'transmitted to Jim's mind'. Ray would play an A major chord or a C minor and Jim would have to match the tones with his own voice. It was at about this stage in The Doors' creation that Jim contacted his family and told them the basics. There hadn't been any success at that point in Jim's new arena of art.

I like to think that any other artistic medium would have worked for Jim instead (i.e. painting, sculpting, writing, film, acting,etc...),it just happened to be music, probably as a result of hearing The Beatles and Rolling Stones, as well as Bo Diddley. I would argue that hearing Elvis had the opposite effect on Jim. Morrison likely did not want to sing after hearing Elvis do it so well and so easily.

The area where Jim and his father would not get along on would be the clothes and hair.

Jim didn't always have to be drunk, so he could theoretically stay sober, but he wasn't gonna go to the barber and have his head buzzed just so that he can see the family. That is what it comes down to. The Admiral would not have allowed Jim's long hair.

Edited by Defiance, 04 January 2012 - 09:00 PM.

[Dawn Visitation]

Shelby68, on 04 January 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

That's cool, I respect other viewpoints My post was sort of directed at Defiance saying that Jim's father's reaction to his musical dreams probbaly didn't mean anything to him.

Maybe Jim and his dad would have reconciled if Jim had lived. Alain Ronay said that Jim had begun speaking fondly about his father in the months preceding his death, telling funny stories.

No problem. Thanks for clarifying. I use a tree display when reading so guess did not exactly follow.

To Defiance: Well, maybe not his father, can imagine his father was not ready. Let's not though forget Jim's mother was willing to meet him and try to reach out so there was at least something from one of his parents.

Of course he probably did not see it like his place in life to better or work on his relationships. He just had another purpose in his life as I assume you mention in your posts. That he died young, that's something to then accept but sometimes those "what if's" kick in. Bittersweet that he never got to experience these "riches" of The Doors and maybe that article made it all the more obvious.

[Defiance]

crazyhorse80, on 04 January 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

Oh, really? Well, here is a quote from your previous post:

Oh, and there is a distinction between what Jim took before he was in The Doors, and after The Doors, because like you said, he had better access to drugs when in The Doors, and as is known, alcohol was the one he always reverted to. That is the discussion this topic was involved in until you became confounded and deviated from the topic. Because, as we were talking alcoholism and genetics, I merely pointed out that 1963 arrest which acknowledges that there were incidents of Morrison drinking well before The Doors, and while he was still talking to the admiral, after you posted this:

Whether or not he was an alcoholic in 1963, there was opportunity for the Admiral to talk about alcohol, but since you were wrong about your supposed facts, like always, I figured I'd clarify your misinformation. And seriously, you are one of the most confused and unintelligible trolls I have come across on any board, ever. Perhaps that's the method to your meaninglessness?

I said that Jim was involved with the clinical medical trials going on so that he could acquire free drugs, not that a medical experiment was conducted on him.

You used the words "Morrison's medical experiments while he was at UCLA" and I corrected you. They weren't his experiments. The medical department wanted to find out how new pills worked on the mind and they needed student-volunteers.

I don't think there is a distinction regarding time periods since LSD was legal before and for a short time after The Doors formed.

He may have had better access to illegal drugs after 1967, but LSD wasn't even illegal in 1965 so therefore it all cancels out. Jim had better access to LSD before The Doors hit it big. Drugs vs LSD.

Coke is a drug... LSD is LSD.

You can't say 'whether or not he [Jim] was an alcoholic in 1963' since it is a fact that he was not. Ray says that when Jim moved in with he and Dorothy in 1965, he never drank and even turned down offers of wine from them. In Ray's words, 'Jim was strictly a stoner'.

I guess you could say 'Regardless of whether or not', but even then you would still be wrong.

Jim wasn't keen on listening to his father, so I don't think there was opportunity present.

You can drink as much as you want, but it doesn't make you into an alcoholic. Jim's drinking episodes prior to 1964 are irrelevant in determining a future 'alcoholic personality'. Jim wasn't alcoholic until after 1967. In 1963 he was just being a kid.

Edited by Defiance, 05 January 2012 - 05:32 AM.