I mean obviously Morrison's whole schtick started off aping Mick, but really has anyone negotiated the tumult of the sixties better than Jagger? He was born the summer before the winter that morrison was. Sure he had four planets in Leo and a leo rising, and his leo sun conjunct pluto(like Schwarzennegger and Madonna) so he had a much more powerful constitution than morrison did, and perhaps that's why he lasted through it. but really has anyone ever written anything darker than paint it black? Or smpathy for the devil? Or street fighting man, or more bluesy than Honky TonK Woman? And if Marianne Faithful is to believed, Mick was also heavy into Psychedelics for awhile. Anyway mick conjured up and faced the same demons at Altamont that Jim faced in Miami, but Mick was strong enough to roar through it. Obviously the guys were riding the same big wave and Mick rode it onto the glorious shore while morrison drowned in it. I know there was definitely competitive feelings between the two and mick was definitely dismissive, but don't you think Mick knew something that Jim didn't? It's too bad that Morrison couldn't lay down his ego and rap out with Mick about how he was handling things, it' might have been very helpful for jim to learn from the maestro.
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Jim could've used a mentor.
Started by brokethrough, Jan 27 2006 08:51 PM
77 replies to this topic
#2
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 09:08 PM
I don't know if Jim needed or wanted a mentor. I also don't know if Mick Jagger was into psychedelics, or if Mick (as you imply) is a better musican and person than Jim. But more importantly I really don't give a fuck about all of the above. I just enjoy listening to The Doors, that's it. So my question to you is, do you even like The Doors? 
aint no such thing as leftover crack
#3
harlow
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 09:12 PM
QUOTE(brokethrough @ Jan 27 2006, 12:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE
I mean obviously Morrison's whole schtick started off aping Mick, but really has anyone negotiated the tumult of the sixties better than Jagger? He was born the summer before the winter that morrison was. Sure he had four planets in Leo and a leo rising, and his leo sun conjunct pluto(like Schwarzennegger and Madonna) so he had a much more powerful constitution than morrison did, and perhaps that's why he lasted through it. but really has anyone ever written anything darker than paint it black? Or smpathy for the devil? Or street fighting man, or more bluesy than Honky TonK Woman? And if Marianne Faithful is to believed, Mick was also heavy into Psychedelics for awhile. Anyway mick conjured up and faced the same demons at Altamont that Jim faced in Miami, but Mick was strong enough to roar through it. Obviously the guys were riding the same big wave and Mick rode it onto the glorious shore while morrison drowned in it. I know there was definitely competitive feelings between the two and mick was definitely dismissive, but don't you think Mick knew something that Jim didn't? It's too bad that Morrison couldn't lay down his ego and rap out with Mick about how he was handling things, it' might have been very helpful for jim to learn from the maestro.
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From reading a bit about Jagger, didn't he have a degree in finance or economics or something? It seems as though at heart, he is a bit more commercial in his instincts and more the "entertainer" than Jim, whereas Jim wasn't about entertainment, he wanted to explore realms unrelated to entertaining the masses, he wanted to personally go to the darker places. My feeling is that Jagger's exploration of such notions was more as a gimmick, although that may or may not be the case. Jagger has his own style, but I think he's much more money minded from a practical standpoint. More material in the sense that he likes big mansions, cars, etc. Maybe that saved him and grounded him, thus preventing a total burnout. Who knows?
(Mick's addiction and drug of choice seems to be sex, judging from all the reports of his behavior over the years). I think Mick is shrewder as an "entertainer", whereas Jim struck me as being more innocent and straightforward in his basic primal approach.
#4
iwanttobeready
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 09:15 PM
Bullshit...Jim could have used TWO PARENTS that were at home on a regular basis to make sure he had learned some of life's basic survival skills....like Mick Jagger HAD when he was growing up.
#5
FanoftheDoors
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 09:27 PM
Jagger is one of my all-time faves. Contrary to popular belief, Mick was a health nut after a fashion, and is very much into fitness now. Although he dabbled in drugs, he never got into the heavy stuff, nor did he do drugs for long. Mick wanted people to think he was more into that scene than he actually was. Have you ever seen him in concert? He dances, paces, walks, skips and runs for 90 minutes without a break and looks none the worse for wear. Jim picked up the shamanism dance while in his teens, living in New Mexico.
I doubt anybody could have gotten through to Jim except Jim himself. I bet it wasn't on Jim's or Mick's minds. After all, both of them were only in their early to mid-twenties and thought they'd live forever. Caution was not put to constructive use in the 1960s music scene.
I don't think Jim aped Mick in his stage performances, nor did Mick imitate Jim. Their entertainment styles differed considerably.
If anyone copied anyone, it was a very slimmed down Elvis who got the idea from Jim to wear all leather for his 1968 Steve Binder comeback special shown on TV and available on DVD.
I doubt anybody could have gotten through to Jim except Jim himself. I bet it wasn't on Jim's or Mick's minds. After all, both of them were only in their early to mid-twenties and thought they'd live forever. Caution was not put to constructive use in the 1960s music scene.
I don't think Jim aped Mick in his stage performances, nor did Mick imitate Jim. Their entertainment styles differed considerably.
If anyone copied anyone, it was a very slimmed down Elvis who got the idea from Jim to wear all leather for his 1968 Steve Binder comeback special shown on TV and available on DVD.
#6
LoneRider
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 10:02 PM
QUOTE(Night Prowler @ Jan 27 2006, 03:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE
I don't know if Jim needed or wanted a mentor. I also don't know if Mick Jagger was into psychedelics, or if Mick (as you imply) is a better musican and person than Jim. But more importantly I really don't give a fuck about all of the above. I just enjoy listening to The Doors, that's it. So my question to you is, do you even like The Doors?
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I'll agree. Jim died over 35 years ago. I'm just here to read up on my favorite band and learn new things instead of trying to figure out a different way to have kept Jim alive.
#7
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 10:18 PM
Thanks LoneRider, I'm glad someone else shares my point of view. 
aint no such thing as leftover crack
#8
brokethrough
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 10:19 PM
QUOTE(iwanttobeready @ Jan 27 2006, 01:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE
Bullshit...Jim could have used TWO PARENTS that were at home on a regular basis to make sure he had learned some of life's basic survival skills....like Mick Jagger HAD when he was growing up.
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Seriously, that's the truth. Jim was basically fatherless as a lot of rap stars are today, and the toll that takes on a person is pretty steep. It makes it hard for htem to be a man.
#9 Guest_TheWallsScreamedPoetry_*
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 11:14 PM
All I know about Mick was he liked Mars bars...
I doubt Jim and Mick had much in common reallyand Jim had a mentor in Ray who tried to be a father figure and Jim rebelled against him so if Ray who had a great deal in common with Jim could not help I don't see how some Brit rocker could have done much....though I do agree with your point about Leo being in conjunction with Pluto but its not as well known that shortly after that Goofy was in Uranus which was probably more painful.
That's made for you and me!
I doubt Jim and Mick had much in common reallyand Jim had a mentor in Ray who tried to be a father figure and Jim rebelled against him so if Ray who had a great deal in common with Jim could not help I don't see how some Brit rocker could have done much....though I do agree with your point about Leo being in conjunction with Pluto but its not as well known that shortly after that Goofy was in Uranus which was probably more painful.
That's made for you and me!
#10
FanoftheDoors
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 11:40 PM
QUOTE(iwanttobeready @ Jan 27 2006, 01:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE
Bullshit...Jim could have used TWO PARENTS that were at home on a regular basis to make sure he had learned some of life's basic survival skills....like Mick Jagger HAD when he was growing up.
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I wouldn't be so quick to blame the parents -- Jim has to be responsible at some point.
Take a look at all the latchkey kids home alone in the 1980s, 90s and now, who could use half a parent... especially since well over 50% of the marriages -- if anyone even bothers to get married -- end up in divorce. Jim, OTOH, came from an intact family, as did most of us during the era of the "Traditional Family Unit", with a mother home while the father toiled at his chosen occupation all in the name of supporting his family.
Jim and his father would have killed each other if they had been together any more than they were. When sober, it was obvious by Jim's behavior that he came from a good background. He had Southern manners, spoke and wrote very well, etc., all the earmarks of a comfortable middle- to upper-middle-class American family.
What do you mean by Survival skills ? ... fisticuffs? ...Stealing? whaaaaaaaaaat?? How about "flourishing" skills instead?
p.s. What were BOTH Mick's parents doing at home? Independently wealthy or on the dole??
#11
Doors Lover
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Posted 27 January 2006 - 11:59 PM
A guiding light keeps one from discovering their own path. :peace:
#12
iwanttobeready
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 12:05 AM
QUOTE(FanoftheDoors @ Jan 27 2006, 03:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
[quote]QUOTE(iwanttobeready @ Jan 27 2006, 01:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/quote][quote]
Bullshit...Jim could have used TWO PARENTS that were at home on a regular basis to make sure he had learned some of life's basic survival skills....like Mick Jagger HAD when he was growing up.
[/b][/quote]
I wouldn't be so quick to blame the parents -- Jim has to be responsible at some point.
Take a look at all the latchkey kids home alone in the 1980s, 90s and now, who could use half a parent... especially since well over 50% of the marriages -- if anyone even bothers to get married -- end up in divorce. Jim, OTOH, came from an intact family, as did most of us during the era of the "Traditional Family Unit", with a mother home while the father toiled at his chosen occupation all in the name of supporting his family.
Jim and his father would have killed each other if they had been together any more than they were. When sober, it was obvious by Jim's behavior that he came from a good background. He had Southern manners, spoke and wrote very well, etc., all the earmarks of a comfortable middle- to upper-middle-class American family.
What do you mean by Survival skills ? ... fisticuffs? ...Stealing? whaaaaaaaaaat?? How about "flourishing" skills instead?
p.s. What were BOTH Mick's parents doing at home? Independently wealthy or on the dole??
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Joe and Eva Jagger were regular middle class Brits....Mom stayed home and Dad brought home the bacon; but was not gone for 6 months and more at a time. They lived in a "respectable neighborhood, in a nice home", for I've seen photos of it. He was home every night and if Mick and/or his brother got Mom mad, Joe would come home and paddle their respective behinds. (metaphorically speaking, not as the truth written in stone, gang).
:rolling:
Bullshit...Jim could have used TWO PARENTS that were at home on a regular basis to make sure he had learned some of life's basic survival skills....like Mick Jagger HAD when he was growing up.
[/b][/quote]
I wouldn't be so quick to blame the parents -- Jim has to be responsible at some point.
Take a look at all the latchkey kids home alone in the 1980s, 90s and now, who could use half a parent... especially since well over 50% of the marriages -- if anyone even bothers to get married -- end up in divorce. Jim, OTOH, came from an intact family, as did most of us during the era of the "Traditional Family Unit", with a mother home while the father toiled at his chosen occupation all in the name of supporting his family.
Jim and his father would have killed each other if they had been together any more than they were. When sober, it was obvious by Jim's behavior that he came from a good background. He had Southern manners, spoke and wrote very well, etc., all the earmarks of a comfortable middle- to upper-middle-class American family.
What do you mean by Survival skills ? ... fisticuffs? ...Stealing? whaaaaaaaaaat?? How about "flourishing" skills instead?
p.s. What were BOTH Mick's parents doing at home? Independently wealthy or on the dole??
[/b][/quote]
Joe and Eva Jagger were regular middle class Brits....Mom stayed home and Dad brought home the bacon; but was not gone for 6 months and more at a time. They lived in a "respectable neighborhood, in a nice home", for I've seen photos of it. He was home every night and if Mick and/or his brother got Mom mad, Joe would come home and paddle their respective behinds. (metaphorically speaking, not as the truth written in stone, gang).
:rolling:
#13
universalmind69
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 12:06 AM
QUOTE(TheWallsScreamedPoetry @ Jan 27 2006, 06:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE
All I know about Mick was he liked Mars bars...
I doubt Jim and Mick had much in common reallyand Jim had a mentor in Ray who tried to be a father figure and Jim rebelled against him so if Ray who had a great deal in common with Jim could not help I don't see how some Brit rocker could have done much....though I do agree with your point about Leo being in conjunction with Pluto but its not as well known that shortly after that Goofy was in Uranus which was probably more painful.
That's made for you and me!
[/b]
I doubt Jim and Mick had much in common reallyand Jim had a mentor in Ray who tried to be a father figure and Jim rebelled against him so if Ray who had a great deal in common with Jim could not help I don't see how some Brit rocker could have done much....though I do agree with your point about Leo being in conjunction with Pluto but its not as well known that shortly after that Goofy was in Uranus which was probably more painful.
That's made for you and me!
[/b]
there you go...this very intricate and ultimately interesting question is hereby solved, thanks to Alex :cheers:
#14
iwanttobeready
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 12:11 AM
Jim might have learned something if he'd had role models who could have taught him limitations, coping skills, judgement of oneself and self preservation; and all the things that kids hate to have their parents interfere with.
I don't think that one has to die at 27 in order to be talented. I don't think anyone who has any kind of talent or brilliance suffers from a little tough love when needed and used with discretion. Only if the parents really know their child....if they even can connect, and Columbine didn't happen during my tenure at school. Tossing spitballs was a capital crime, then.
ROTFLMAO
I don't think that one has to die at 27 in order to be talented. I don't think anyone who has any kind of talent or brilliance suffers from a little tough love when needed and used with discretion. Only if the parents really know their child....if they even can connect, and Columbine didn't happen during my tenure at school. Tossing spitballs was a capital crime, then.
ROTFLMAO
#15
jymwrite
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 01:02 AM
QUOTE(iwanttobeready @ Jan 27 2006, 06:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE
Jim might have learned something if he'd had role models who could have taught him limitations, coping skills, judgement of oneself and self preservation; and all the things that kids hate to have their parents interfere with.
I don't think that one has to die at 27 in order to be talented. I don't think anyone who has any kind of talent or brilliance suffers from a little tough love when needed and used with discretion. Only if the parents really know their child....if they even can connect, and Columbine didn't happen during my tenure at school. Tossing spitballs was a capital crime, then.
ROTFLMAO
[/b]
I don't think that one has to die at 27 in order to be talented. I don't think anyone who has any kind of talent or brilliance suffers from a little tough love when needed and used with discretion. Only if the parents really know their child....if they even can connect, and Columbine didn't happen during my tenure at school. Tossing spitballs was a capital crime, then.
ROTFLMAO
[/b]
Of course, but then he wouldn't have been the Jim Morrison that created a rock legend, he wouldn't be the Jim Morrison that is a symbol of rebellion to every new generation. If Jim had those attributes he might still be alive but would be here talking about a band much less be interested in Morrison.
Now, for some reason I need a Mars bar
#16
universalmind69
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 01:05 AM
QUOTE(jymwrite @ Jan 27 2006, 08:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
[quote]QUOTE(iwanttobeready @ Jan 27 2006, 06:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/quote][quote]
Jim might have learned something if he'd had role models who could have taught him limitations, coping skills, judgement of oneself and self preservation; and all the things that kids hate to have their parents interfere with.
I don't think that one has to die at 27 in order to be talented. I don't think anyone who has any kind of talent or brilliance suffers from a little tough love when needed and used with discretion. Only if the parents really know their child....if they even can connect, and Columbine didn't happen during my tenure at school. Tossing spitballs was a capital crime, then.
ROTFLMAO
[/b][/quote]
Of course, but then he wouldn't have been the Jim Morrison that created a rock legend, he wouldn't be the Jim Morrison that is a symbol of rebellion to every new generation. If Jim had those attributes he might still be alive but would be here talking about a band much less be interested in Morrison.
Now, for some reason I need a Mars bar
[/b][/quote]
could it be that I smell a new conspiracy theory here....?
Jim was obsessed with eating large quantities of Mars bars according to Stephen Davis` book, Jagger also had to have his fix....Jim was Jaggers` nemesis...now add a quick plane trip to Paris under a false name, suitcase full of poisoned Mars-bars, next stop No 17 Rue Beautreillis..........
Could it be..?
Jim might have learned something if he'd had role models who could have taught him limitations, coping skills, judgement of oneself and self preservation; and all the things that kids hate to have their parents interfere with.
I don't think that one has to die at 27 in order to be talented. I don't think anyone who has any kind of talent or brilliance suffers from a little tough love when needed and used with discretion. Only if the parents really know their child....if they even can connect, and Columbine didn't happen during my tenure at school. Tossing spitballs was a capital crime, then.
ROTFLMAO
[/b][/quote]
Of course, but then he wouldn't have been the Jim Morrison that created a rock legend, he wouldn't be the Jim Morrison that is a symbol of rebellion to every new generation. If Jim had those attributes he might still be alive but would be here talking about a band much less be interested in Morrison.
Now, for some reason I need a Mars bar
[/b][/quote]
could it be that I smell a new conspiracy theory here....?
Jim was obsessed with eating large quantities of Mars bars according to Stephen Davis` book, Jagger also had to have his fix....Jim was Jaggers` nemesis...now add a quick plane trip to Paris under a false name, suitcase full of poisoned Mars-bars, next stop No 17 Rue Beautreillis..........
Could it be..?
#17
Jason Morrison
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 02:58 AM
My friend didn't really have any time with his father and he turned out alright
I've read in Pat K's book that Jim didn't really like Jagger. Of course take that for what you will...It's Pat K of all people saying this.
I've read in Pat K's book that Jim didn't really like Jagger. Of course take that for what you will...It's Pat K of all people saying this.
#18
All we did was die...
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 03:13 AM
Jim had mentors.
Jim had Rimbaud, Joyce, Huxley, Baudelaire, Neitzsche, Sartre and Kirkegaad.
These timeless literary figures, and their creations, helped Jim more than any transient, narcissistic rockstar ever could.
Jim had Rimbaud, Joyce, Huxley, Baudelaire, Neitzsche, Sartre and Kirkegaad.
These timeless literary figures, and their creations, helped Jim more than any transient, narcissistic rockstar ever could.
#19
iwanttobeready
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 04:16 AM
QUOTE(All we did was die... @ Jan 27 2006, 07:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
[quote]Jim had mentors.
Jim had Rimbaud, Joyce, Huxley, Baudelaire, Neitzsche, Sartre and Kirkegaad.
These timeless literary figures, and their creations, helped Jim more than any transient, narcissistic rockstar ever could.
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That's like saying "Jesus is your best friend" Oh yeah? Then how come he don't come around and visit?
Sometimes a person that you can trust, and Jim never found that, even with the band, is a hard place to be.
QUOTE(jymwrite @ Jan 27 2006, 05:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
[quote]QUOTE(iwanttobeready @ Jan 27 2006, 06:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/quote][quote]
Jim might have learned something if he'd had role models who could have taught him limitations, coping skills, judgement of oneself and self preservation; and all the things that kids hate to have their parents interfere with.
I don't think that one has to die at 27 in order to be talented. I don't think anyone who has any kind of talent or brilliance suffers from a little tough love when needed and used with discretion. Only if the parents really know their child....if they even can connect, and Columbine didn't happen during my tenure at school. Tossing spitballs was a capital crime, then.
ROTFLMAO
[/b][/quote]
Of course, but then he wouldn't have been the Jim Morrison that created a rock legend, he wouldn't be the Jim Morrison that is a symbol of rebellion to every new generation. If Jim had those attributes he might still be alive but would be here talking about a band much less be interested in Morrison.
Now, for some reason I need a Mars bar
[/b][/quote]
Brilliance is not limited to those who die young. Countless brilliant persons from all walks of life lived to be quite old.
One has nothing to do with the other. Brilliance will rise to the top like cream; and whale shit sinks to the bottom; always has...always will.
Jim might have learned something if he'd had role models who could have taught him limitations, coping skills, judgement of oneself and self preservation; and all the things that kids hate to have their parents interfere with.
I don't think that one has to die at 27 in order to be talented. I don't think anyone who has any kind of talent or brilliance suffers from a little tough love when needed and used with discretion. Only if the parents really know their child....if they even can connect, and Columbine didn't happen during my tenure at school. Tossing spitballs was a capital crime, then.
ROTFLMAO
[/b][/quote]
Of course, but then he wouldn't have been the Jim Morrison that created a rock legend, he wouldn't be the Jim Morrison that is a symbol of rebellion to every new generation. If Jim had those attributes he might still be alive but would be here talking about a band much less be interested in Morrison.
Now, for some reason I need a Mars bar
[/b][/quote]
Brilliance is not limited to those who die young. Countless brilliant persons from all walks of life lived to be quite old.
One has nothing to do with the other. Brilliance will rise to the top like cream; and whale shit sinks to the bottom; always has...always will.
#20
Nikkitad
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Posted 28 January 2006 - 04:21 AM
OMG BrokeThrough!! Mick Jagger as a mentor??!!!! Dude, you have got to be kidding!!! For 1, Jagger dropped LSD like candy!! Mick was very insecure of himself. Especially of his dancing. He was taking lessons from Tina Turner. 2. Just because Jim's father was not around all the time, does not make him less a man. Jim had his mentors. It just happens that they were not his father.
Didn't you compare Morrison to :rolling: Scott Stapp?!! I think you really need to get a hobby or something!! I keep waiting for you to compare Morrison to William Hung!!!! WTF!! Is it just me??? :wtf:
Didn't you compare Morrison to :rolling: Scott Stapp?!! I think you really need to get a hobby or something!! I keep waiting for you to compare Morrison to William Hung!!!! WTF!! Is it just me??? :wtf:
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