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[All we did was die...]

[quote]

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[SniperPoet]

"All science ever is is best guess"
- Issac Asimov
[/b]

I would expect that from Isaac Asimov, a science fiction writer who was a short termed sub-par academic researcher.  Not to say that he's not a visionary, just that he is not scientist material.  

One's conclusion or theory is only as good as the work put into it.  In this case there was ZERO work put into an investigation of Jim's death.  His rotting body was left in the apartment for 2 days until the coffin people arrived, with one cheap coffin, some dry ice, and a handfull of screwes.  It seems that pamela wanted to keep him anonymous and get his body in  ground as fast as possible.  I don't buy the premise, "to avoid a circus funeral like Jimmy and Janis."  Why the cheap coffin, because it was ready made; anything else would have been more time to assemble (padding, liner, wood work, hardware, ...) and Paris 1971 did not move that fast.  I believe that Pamela was KNOWINGLY  involved and covering up something.  It is easy to come up with a half a dozen scenarios:   from she killed him, to suicide, to Jim killed some guy in a fight and used his body.  It is to bad there was not even a picture or a blood sample.  God you would think at least one picture, everyone was camera happy back then.

If I built a small drilling device that could take a core sample, I wonder if Andy or Anne would donate any DNA?  Second thought, I could train a gopher.

[mizscarlett43]

I, on 16 December 2005 - 09:18 AM, said:

QUOTE(Rey @ Dec 15 2005, 11:08 PM) QUOTE I never understand how people don't grasp that Jim wasn't suicidal, he was simply in tune with mortality.

We all have a finite amount of time on this earth. Whether we are strong, smart, bold, or timid, eventually time will run out.

Experiencing the trauma of the car accident, Jim was jarred to the awareness of that mortality from an early age (much earlier than most people) and it transformed him into someone who - aware that death lurks everywhere, unexpected and unannounced - became transfixed on living every moment to its fullest.

I don't see Jim any different than a matador, or a sky-diver, or a mercenary soldier, or anyone who looks death in the eye and laughs. Jim took chances. Jim flirted with disaster constantly. Jim tempted fate. Unlike most people who avoid death in every way possible, Jim taunted and baited it at every turn. Was that "suicidal"? I guess from a certain perspective it was. But the term "suicidal" generally denotes depression and escape, and I don't think Jim falls into that category at all. I think he was simply hyperaware of mortality and chose to control it.

Most people don't understand that because it just scares the fuck out of them. Contemplating your own death is "a bummer". So most people don't. They avoid it. They put their fate in "God's" hands, or they're just content to leave it up to "mother nature". The kind of person Jim was... well that just wouldn't do. He chose to explore it, taunt it, mock it, tempt it, and in that offhand way, control it.

Although he did it in a completely out-of-control manner, Jim was still in full control of his life. He made his own road with his unique art, he didn't let corporate pressures from Elektra or Buick influence him, he didn't wilt in the face of the government, and he even challenged his fans by becoming the antithesis of the pin-up image with beard and a belly. Controlling his mortality was just another aspect of his life.

So in a nutshell, sure, I guess you can technically describe it as "suicide", but not in the sense that most people use it.
[/b]

Exactly! Super! :peace:

Another old but important thread I'm going to revive, in the hopes of pumping some life back into this board.

[mizscarlett43]

Forever_Here, on 16 December 2005 - 09:32 AM, said:

they couldnt of had alcohol helplines and drug helplines and whatnot back then cause if there was a jim today thenhe would of got help right away

Not a chance. Not Jim. Never in hell.

[Just Another Dark Witness]

Gee, this is a tough one. I think the word is:
Heroin?

[mizscarlett43]

Just Another Dark Witness, on 09 September 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

Gee, this is a tough one. I think the word is:
Heroin?

Yep, that drug he supposedly hated and would never touch. I didn't know that, of course, so when he and I had the obligatory late 60s/early 70s conversation about drugs* in early 1971 and I asked him about heroin, I wasn't particularly surprised when he said he'd tried it a couple of times (snorted it) and liked it well enough to try it again.


*Everybody--and I do mean everybody--had that conversation back in the day. It was just one of the standard topics of conversation, 2nd only to "what's your favorite band?"
___________
On edit: Sorry, Robert--forgot who I was responding to. Of course you know all this--but the young'uns don't so I guess it bears repeating.

Edited by mizscarlett43, 09 September 2012 - 10:03 PM.

[*~adrienne~*]

SniperPoet, on 18 December 2005 - 05:33 AM, said:

<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->"All science ever is is best guess"
- Issac Asimov
[/b]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

I would expect that from Isaac Asimov, a science fiction writer who was a short termed sub-par academic researcher.  Not to say that he's not a visionary, just that he is not scientist material.  

One's conclusion or theory is only as good as the work put into it.  In this case there was ZERO work put into an investigation of Jim's death.  His rotting body was left in the apartment for 2 days until the coffin people arrived, with one cheap coffin, some dry ice, and a handfull of screwes.  It seems that pamela wanted to keep him anonymous and get his body in  ground as fast as possible.  I don't buy the premise, "to avoid a circus funeral like Jimmy and Janis."  Why the cheap coffin, because it was ready made; anything else would have been more time to assemble (padding, liner, wood work, hardware, ...) and Paris 1971 did not move that fast.  I believe that Pamela was KNOWINGLY  involved and covering up something.  It is easy to come up with a half a dozen scenarios:   from she killed him, to suicide, to Jim killed some guy in a fight and used his body.  It is to bad there was not even a picture or a blood sample.  God you would think at least one picture, everyone was camera happy back then.

If I built a small drilling device that could take a core sample, I wonder if Andy or Anne would donate any DNA?  Second thought, I could train a gopher.

To this day I still think they should exhume Jim's body. I know I'll get nothing but shit from everyone on this board for having the balls to say it, but it's what I think. Hell, it's what everyone thinks. I want to know how he died. So do most of his fans. How his parent's, brother and sister didn't flipout over the fact that he was buried before they got to view his body or even give him a proper funeral is beyond me. I'll never understand it. It's awful. It's a fucking tragedy, that's what it is. He's a fucking human being. He deserves dignity and respect. How can I say that and want them to exhume his body? Because even if they don't tell his fans what really happened, at least tell his fucking family. They should get that much. I mean the fact that his father died without knowing the EXACT circumstances surrounding his death is horrifying. I mean tell me his father didn't spend a few minutes each day mourning his son's death. It's just a fucking tragedy. All around. There Janet that should get some action on the boards LOL!

Edited by *~adrienne~*, 09 September 2012 - 10:11 PM.

[jlo]

mizscarlett43, on 09 September 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

Yep, that drug he supposedly hated and would never touch. I didn't know that, of course, so when he and I had the obligatory late 60s/early 70s conversation about drugs* in early 1971 and I asked him about heroin, I wasn't particularly surprised when he said he'd tried it a couple of times (snorted it) and liked it well enough to try it again.


*Everybody--and I do mean everybody--had that conversation back in the day. It was just one of the standard topics of conversation, 2nd only to "what's your favorite band?"
___________
On edit: Sorry, Robert--forgot who I was responding to. Of course you know all this--but the young'uns don't so I guess it bears repeating.

hi miz! so, being one of the youn'uns, i was just wondering how heroin was perceived by the people having this conversation? i get the impression that drugs were acceptable back then and everyone would try anything. it sounds like a scary proposition to me, but then again i am not one to use drugs though i have to admit the morphine they gave me after my knee surgery (again) sure took the edge off...

[Just Another Dark Witness]

I was in my mid-teens around the late 1960's. Not in my early 20's like some of us "old timers" (sorry...lol...). Drug-wise, pot was the only thing I tried at that time. Even at 14 to 17, I had ALWAYS heard horror stories about heroin. That's something I would NEVER have tried. I heard "people die from that one". It was common knowledge with all 14 to 16 year olds, which who I hung with. Then also added to my personal list of drugs NEVER to try was acid, mushrooms, etc. Call it common sense or whatever it was, I knew that I was the kind of person who would take acid and fly out the window. That was always in my mind. So that's what kept me, personally, from never being even close to trying those several drugs.  

But hey, you "young" kids here, just keep away from all drugs, will ya? They're all lame and stupid. They will NOT help you in your life. They will only harm you. And don't drink too much either. And If I have to hear Ray say 1 more time in my lifetime that the psychedelics are GOOD for you, I'll throw up.. It's irresponsible of him. I LOVE him, but he's wrong. Lecture over--

[queenhwy]

[quote name='Just Another Dark Witness' date='10 September 2012 - 10:07 PM' timestamp='1347311256' post='373089']
I was in my mid-teens around the late 1960's. Not in my early 20's like some of us "old timers" (sorry...lol...). Drug-wise, pot was the only thing I tried at that time. Even at 14 to 17, I had ALWAYS heard horror stories about heroin. That's something I would NEVER have tried. I heard "people die from that one". It was common knowledge with all 14 to 16 year olds, which who I hung with. Then also added to my personal list of drugs NEVER to try was acid, mushrooms, etc. Call it common sense or whatever it was, I knew that I was the kind of person who would take acid and fly out the window. That was always in my mind. So that's what kept me, personally, from never being even close to trying those several drugs.  

But hey, you "young" kids here, just keep away from all drugs, will ya? They're all lame and stupid. They will NOT help you in your life. They will only harm you. And don't drink too much either. And If I have to hear Ray say 1 more time in my lifetime that the psychedelics are GOOD for you, I'll throw up.. It's irresponsible of him. I LOVE him, but he's wrong. Lecture over--
[/quote]


Sometimes I think I'm the only Doors fan who is not a drug user!  People think b/c you listen to the Doors that you are automatically a psychedelics/drug user! I am not any of those things and people are stunned by it!  Not my thing, never has been!  Just really, really love the music and Jim Morrison, of course!!

And I agree with all you said above!

[*~adrienne~*]

I was reading about John Phillips on wiki just totally randomly and I came across this part that said something about how even Keith Richards told him he had to leave his house due to his heroin use. I mean how bad off do you have to be for fucking Keith Richards to tell you you have a serious drug problem LOL?

[jlo]

Just Another Dark Witness, on 10 September 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

1347311256[/url]' post='373089']
I was in my mid-teens around the late 1960's. Not in my early 20's like some of us "old timers" (sorry...lol...). Drug-wise, pot was the only thing I tried at that time. Even at 14 to 17, I had ALWAYS heard horror stories about heroin. That's something I would NEVER have tried. I heard "people die from that one". It was common knowledge with all 14 to 16 year olds, which who I hung with. Then also added to my personal list of drugs NEVER to try was acid, mushrooms, etc. Call it common sense or whatever it was, I knew that I was the kind of person who would take acid and fly out the window. That was always in my mind. So that's what kept me, personally, from never being even close to trying those several drugs.  

But hey, you "young" kids here, just keep away from all drugs, will ya? They're all lame and stupid. They will NOT help you in your life. They will only harm you. And don't drink too much either. And If I have to hear Ray say 1 more time in my lifetime that the psychedelics are GOOD for you, I'll throw up.. It's irresponsible of him. I LOVE him, but he's wrong. Lecture over--

Thank you for your perspective, jadw! it is scary to me that having that information people wold actually do it. But then, i was never one to throw caution to the wind.

[freedomgirl]

mizscarlett43, on 09 September 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

Yep, that drug he supposedly hated and would never touch. I didn't know that, of course, so when he and I had the obligatory late 60s/early 70s conversation about drugs* in early 1971 and I asked him about heroin, I wasn't particularly surprised when he said he'd tried it a couple of times (snorted it) and liked it well enough to try it again.


*Everybody--and I do mean everybody--had that conversation back in the day. It was just one of the standard topics of conversation, 2nd only to "what's your favorite band?"
___________
On edit: Sorry, Robert--forgot who I was responding to. Of course you know all this--but the young'uns don't so I guess it bears repeating.

Yes, as strange as it may sound to the younger ones, it was common to talk about what drugs you did and how you likedt it back then. Nothing special at all, I remember it too.

[freedomgirl]

*~adrienne~*, on 09 September 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

To this day I still think they should exhume Jim's body. I know I'll get nothing but shit from everyone on this board for having the balls to say it, but it's what I think. Hell, it's what everyone thinks. I want to know how he died. So do most of his fans. How his parent's, brother and sister didn't flipout over the fact that he was buried before they got to view his body or even give him a proper funeral is beyond me. I'll never understand it. It's awful. It's a fucking tragedy, that's what it is. He's a fucking human being. He deserves dignity and respect. How can I say that and want them to exhume his body? Because even if they don't tell his fans what really happened, at least tell his fucking family. They should get that much. I mean the fact that his father died without knowing the EXACT circumstances surrounding his death is horrifying. I mean tell me his father didn't spend a few minutes each day mourning his son's death. It's just a fucking tragedy. All around. There Janet that should get some action on the boards LOL!

adrienne you can´t be serious about this! Exhume Jim´s body, what for? Can´t he even have peace now. I don´t understand why so many people are so interested to know how, or where Jim died. What difference does it make?! He´s dead and nothing will ever bring him back... And maybe his family didn´t have his body exhumed cause they felt the same way. What would it have changed if they would have known what caused his death.
Why can´t a quiet, small funeral be a proper one? I may be wrong but I strongly tend to believe if Jim would have had a chance to choose he would have prefered the funeral he had to a big meadia circus. I agree with you that it´s sad his family and some close friends couldn´t be there.
To exhume his body is your idea of dignity and respect? One thing that bothers me much more than how or where he died is the way his grave looks. Yes he was a fucking human being, but obviously one that doesn´t deserve a decent resting place. That´s how much dignity, respact and affection he gets...
If Jim´s father, or his sister and brother would have known the exact circomstances of his death do you really believe it would have helped to ease their griefe?!

[freedomgirl]

mizscarlett43, on 09 September 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

Not a chance. Not Jim. Never in hell.

No better way to say it mizscarlett... let me add not even on the day hell freezes. I can imagne it as well as Jim getting on his knees to propose to PK.Before anyone gets the wrong idea I never read (and never will) any of her books! I read extracts of it in Break On Through or somewhere else. If I had to choose I would believe that before Jim calling a drug helpline.

Lately I sometimes get the impression some of the younger ones around here have a rather naive image of Jim.

[mizscarlett43]

freedomgirl, on 15 September 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

No better way to say it mizscarlett... let me add not even on the day hell freezes. I can imagne it as well as Jim getting on his knees to propose to PK.Before anyone gets the wrong idea I never read (and never will) any of her books! I read extracts of it in Break On Through or somewhere else. If I had to choose I would believe that before Jim calling a drug helpline.

Lately I sometimes get the impression some of the younger ones around here have a rather naive image of Jim.

I agree--they're judging him, us, and those times by todays' standards.  Also I think a fair number of them are conventionally religious and are scandalized at the thought that he didn't have a "proper" funeral and burial--whatever that means. (I honestly don't know, heathen that I am, though I did attend a few family funerals back in the 60s and early 70s. Don't remember much, though...)

[flashing bliss]

*~adrienne~*, on 09 September 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

To this day I still think they should exhume Jim's body. I know I'll get nothing but shit from everyone on this board for having the balls to say it, but it's what I think. Hell, it's what everyone thinks. I want to know how he died. So do most of his fans. How his parent's, brother and sister didn't flipout over the fact that he was buried before they got to view his body or even give him a proper funeral is beyond me. I'll never understand it. It's awful. It's a fucking tragedy, that's what it is. He's a fucking human being. He deserves dignity and respect. How can I say that and want them to exhume his body? Because even if they don't tell his fans what really happened, at least tell his fucking family. They should get that much. I mean the fact that his father died without knowing the EXACT circumstances surrounding his death is horrifying. I mean tell me his father didn't spend a few minutes each day mourning his son's death. It's just a fucking tragedy. All around. There Janet that should get some action on the boards LOL!

I've thought the same before now but on reflection his Dad had been at war for more than half the years of Jim's life and on active service throughout.  Losing flying buddies and other comrades..... and (for all I know), burying servicemen at sea.   In short, he was very familiar with the suddenness of death, even if none came close to the loss he felt over his son's estrangement and tragic and wasteful, early demise.  I'm sure they were aware of Jim's drug experimentation and drinking because Jim talked and wrote about it.   I doubt it interested them which particular cause/drug dealt the final blow.  They'd no more exhume Jim than disturb a war grave in some far flung corner in which the Admiral had served.

RIP Jim

[mizscarlett43]

flashing bliss, on 17 September 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I've thought the same before now but on reflection his Dad had been at war for more than half the years of Jim's life and on active service throughout.  Losing flying buddies and other comrades..... and (for all I know), burying servicemen at sea.   In short, he was very familiar with the suddenness of death, even if none came close to the loss he felt over his son's estrangement and tragic and wasteful, early demise.  I'm sure they were aware of Jim's drug experimentation and drinking because Jim talked and wrote about it.   I doubt it interested them which particular cause/drug dealt the final blow.  They'd no more exhume Jim than disturb a war grave in some far flung corner in which the Admiral had served.

RIP Jim

I've come to realize Jim's death was neither. I've said it before and I'll keep saying it: He did what he came here to do and then he went home.

And once again, please remember his "shooting star" comment. He knew--of course he knew-- because he was the one pulling the strings, not some random fate or hairy thunderer in the sky.

Edited by mizscarlett43, 17 September 2012 - 06:10 PM.

[manhime]

mizscarlett43, on 17 September 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

I've come to realize Jim's death was neither. I've said it before and I'll keep saying it: He did what he came here to do and then he went home.

And once again, please remember his "shooting star" comment. He knew--of course he knew-- because he was the one pulling the strings, not some random fate or hairy thunderer in the sky.

Not many people choose to die.  Self preservation kicks in.  I remember one time I woke up and had a very hard time breathing.  I tried to tough it out. I did not want to see a doctor.  All the time my wife asking me to go to the doctor with her.  

Finally I got scared of dying and went.  Not breathing is a scary thing.

Jim could of went to the Hospital when he was coughing up blood.  For some strange reason he chose to take a bath and ignore what was happening.

I do not believe in the notion that we are here to do a certain thing then die.  Jim had a choice and he chosen to die.

mizscarlett43,

Did you ever talk to PAM?

[mizscarlett43]

manhime, on 17 September 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

Not many people choose to die.  Self preservation kicks in.  I remember one time I woke up and had a very hard time breathing.  I tried to tough it out. I did not want to see a doctor.  All the time my wife asking me to go to the doctor with her.  

Finally I got scared of dying and went.  Not breathing is a scary thing.

Jim could of went to the Hospital when he was coughing up blood.  For some strange reason he chose to take a bath and ignore what was happening.

I do not believe in the notion that we are here to do a certain thing then die.  Jim had a choice and he chosen to die.

mizscarlett43,

Did you ever talk to PAM?

Please understand I'm not saying it was a conscious choice on his part. Also the story about him coughing up blood and choosing to take a bath instead of seeking medical help is not true. Never happened.

Once again--according to my information and Salli's--Jim OD'D at the Rock'n'Roll Circus, or rather in the passageway between the Circus and the Alcazar next door--was carried back to the apartment and put in the tub and left there for poor Pam to find when she came home (and no, she had not been out with the Count either--he was with Marianne Faithfull then.)

Edited by mizscarlett43, 17 September 2012 - 08:26 PM.